On the D train...
Every Tuesday I go home from college with a friend and our professor. The professor is a non-religious Jew. So we have various discussions about anything from that weeks Literary work to who makes the best french fries.
This weeks discussion wound up being about "Bashert" not the Shidduch kind but the divine providence type, AKA "Hashgocho Protis", I myself do not believe in it. I believe that there are times when yes, things do have a greater picture and it is never evident, or evident too late for us to be glad about it. I believe that the idea of divine providence is an excuse for many people to take the blame off thier shoulders and shift it to GOD.
Though it is nice to blame others, I prefer to let the blame rest on myself.
What do you think?
posted by Rachel at
11:56 AM
11 Comments:
My inner chauvinist speaking here--
It's just hilarious how all frum girls know every Gemara, Midrash, saying and some good quotes, about the topic of Bashert. They quote Gemaras, analyze things, get into it, "the seven zivugs", "what if someone get's divorced and remarried, who's the bashert," the thing about splitting the sea.... It's so tiresome.
Guys only know of some abstract conception of the whole thing. They just take the first cute girl who knows how to cook!!
By
Nemo, at 12:54 AM
I don't think believing in divine providence is shifting the blame to G-d. It doesn't take away from the fact that we were all granted free choice and the responsibility to make our own decisions and choices in life. If anything it humbles you- yes you are in control of your actions- but there is someone greater than you who has the final say in the matter. You choose your action- he chooses the consequence. Don't think you made it all happen...
By
Esther, at 8:27 AM
Nemo- I think Frum was thinking the other kinda bashert- as in Divine Providence.
By
Anonymous, at 4:33 PM
not to be over analytical or anything but I was just wondering about your choice of words- 'frum BUT thinking' as opposed to 'frum AND thinking'. do you mean:
1. frum people don't usually think, but you are the exception.
OR
2. you are frum, but you're thinking of not being frum.
By
Esther, at 7:57 PM
Nemo, I agree with you that most guys do tend to under think marriage and women tend to over analyze it and all.
But I think guys who are REALLY ready for marriage must think about more than food, and sex obviously.
And yes, that does sound moderatly chauvinistic!
By
Rachel, at 9:55 PM
Wandering...
I guess the words were more of a subconscious play on words.
It is actually a bit of both.
I find frum people too scared to actually think- think deeply, because of what would happen if they came up with a question that doesn't have a clean cut answer. It is easier to not think than to take the chance of complicating things.
Frum people like their frum lives simple. Without having to think of why they are doing something.
And on the other hand, yes, there have been many times where I have contemplated becoming not- religious.
Not as a rebellion thing, because I am way beyond rebelling. But simply because I have a hard time believing. And that, it turns out is even worse than just wanting to rebel.
I think many people stay religious not out of love for GOD or Torah, but simply because they are scared of anything unfameliar.
As am I.
By
Rachel, at 10:00 PM
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By
Nemo, at 10:53 PM
That may represent the feelings of many people, which shows that they do think, but do not act on their feelings.
However, that doesn't negate belief. There is still a belief there even though it's a base belief. Lack of sophistication doesn't alter reality. If G-d is as we know him to exist, we don't necessarily have to have every philosophical argument to prove and define his existence. The quality {and fault} of jewish people is that we are Ma'aminim Bnei Ma'aminim.
I don't know you to judge you, but I'm sure you believe in G-d and his sovereignty. You are just troubled by various facets of religion, which I maintain is very normal.
By
Nemo, at 10:59 PM
I do understand where you are coming from, I think everyone goes through it too a certain extent. Some of us brush it off and some of us change our lives because of it, but having doubts is only human. I actually see it a little differently though- I don't think faith is an escape, or the easy way out. I think that someone who has doubts and concrete questions about judaism, but chooses to believe in Hashem and the Torah is making the biggest move. I have friends/relatives who left their religous life style and think that they have the biggest stregnth of character that they were able to 'break free' from their upbringing and that I must be a weaker person than they are. I firmly believe though, that rechoosing your religon despite the questions and doubts that you may have, takes true stregnth. Leaving it behind is only running away.
By
Esther, at 6:45 PM
Wandering, in some ways I will agree with you. It does take tremensdous strength to stay religious and such. However, I am talking about people who really could not care less about being religious, but are too scared to make a move. It is not courage. It is laziness. Religion is not an easy way out. It is an active pursuit, all encompassing.
I guess i'm just fed up of people who look and pretend to be religious and aren't. Just be what you are.
By
Rachel, at 10:04 PM
I think you are 100 percent right. Reconciling free will and divine providence is obtuse. Therefore, most people who say "God willed it" are individuals who cannot handle being free and wrong.
By
AC, at 6:37 PM
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